Read the "Varying Viewpoints" passage on p. 667 of your Pageant book about the Turner thesis. Does the Western frontier experience define America and our national character? Was Turner right, or are the modern scholars? Be sure to respond to the question completely and respond to one of your classmate's posts by Monday, February 15.
23 Comments
Molly G
2/12/2010 05:55:45 am
The Western frontier experience defines America and its national character. Turner was right in saying that “the national character had been uniquely shaped by the westward movement.” Even though modern historians are right in saying that we intruded on the Native Americans, is does not mean these actions didn’t shape America as a nation. The west is part of the nation, and these actions definitely shaped the west and how it developed. Along with America moving west, came change in the east. Population saw changes in the east due to Americans moving west. Therefore, America, as a nation, was changed. The western frontier experience not only changed the west, as modern historians are looking at it, but it changed the east too. It changed our nation as a whole.
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Ashley C
2/13/2010 02:14:17 am
During and after the reading I found myself torn. I agree to some extent with turner and with the modern scholars. Turner argues that the pioneer's perseverance is the basis of America and national character. Modern scholars disagree that the conditions were so tough. They feel that the government shaped and defined our nation. I think that the pioneer's struggle and the government both defined the nation. Without the raising of the bar that the western pioneers did our nation may have struggled to succeed in the fast growing society and econonmy. Along with that the government and their civil improvements also shaped our nationasl character. They provided laws, demands, and economic growth. Without either of these factors I do not think we would be the Amreica we are today.
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Ashley C
2/13/2010 04:17:41 am
I agree with Molly and what she said about population. Just the shifts in populatiun helped define who we are as a nation today. Without the flood to the west our nation could of ended up differently. We grew together as a nation as people started to branch out in the west.
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Molly G
2/14/2010 01:48:30 am
I see what Ashley is saying about being torn after the reading. Both Turner and modern historians have good points. I think Turner was more right though. I agree with Ashley in that both the government and the pioneers’ struggles defined our nation. The pioneers shaped the government and the government shaped our country. Both had equal roles and our country would be different if it was not for these roles.
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Zain B
2/14/2010 11:57:03 pm
I think the historians were correct; the frontier was not the defining experience to America. I think we as a nation defined the frontier, our corporations and pioneers entered this western territory bringing with them technologies and laws that they imposed on the native people. With this expansion westward we conquered and changed the land rather than have it change us. This westward movement did not define the nation instead the expansion was defined by the nation.
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Amberleigh V.
2/15/2010 12:00:21 am
Here goes…The Scholars and Turner had weak points. It is said under Turner that “…the national character had been uniquely shaped by the westward movement. Pioneers had brought the raw West into the embrace of civilization.” They say ‘the embrace of civilization’ as if its nothing, as if it’s GOOD. The Indians did not want to embrace the European “civilization.” They tried to defend their culture and way of life, but Europeans charged forward with their “civilian-like” technology and took how many lives away? Thousands, millions… The Indians did not live in huge houses like that of the Europeans, but that does not makes them “savages” or uncivilized. What is more savage? To live in simple ways with the Earth, and to defend each other when necessary, or to take over entire land masses with advanced weapons and to not even give the other side a chance to survive? By definition, “savage” is referred to as something “fierce, ferocious, or cruel; untamed.” The Indians were not all peaceful people, but they were not as hostile as the Europeans who were fierce with their advanced weapons, cruel to mankind, and who were untamed because they put their horrific greedy thoughts into action.
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Zain B
2/15/2010 12:01:11 am
i agree with molly in that westward expansion created change in the united states. it did create change but did not define the nation, westward expansion just reallocated resources. people moved west and brought their former culture with them changing the west rather than changing the whole nation.
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Amberleigh V.
2/15/2010 12:05:12 am
Ashley said that our past shaped our national character and that those factors shaped what America is today. As I said above, where are we today? People think that if we did not go through a horrible past that we would be in worse conditions today… that is not true though. It could have been better if people would have taken a different approach to handling other societies and civilizations.
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Bobby C.
2/15/2010 12:23:41 am
The settling of the West does not define our national character. As the text states, we still have a different culture than the Europeans do which conflicts with Turner's thesis. I believe the modern scholars are right in saying that settling the West had a hand in shaping American culture, not defining it.
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Bobby C.
2/15/2010 12:30:01 am
I agree with Zain that the West did not define the nation and that we as Americans defined the expansion. Turner's thesis was not correct and the settling of the West did not have such a major impact on American culture.
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Taylor D.
2/15/2010 05:03:21 am
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Taylor D.
2/15/2010 05:09:21 am
The Western frontier experience does define our national character. At least, back then it sets the tone for our character, which influences our nation today. People from the eastern part of the country forced the "socially acceptable" aspects of society on all the Native Americans and the immigrants that came over to the US. Once again, our nation has the mentality that they are bigger and better than everyone else and what they say goes.
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Taylor D.
2/15/2010 05:13:19 am
I disagree with Bobby. The Western frontier did shape our character. I also think that Turner was right in his thinking. Americans get so arrogant sometimes, thinking that our customs, traditions, and ways of life are the only way to do things and we frown upon the way other countries do things or carry about their business.
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Brian W
2/15/2010 08:35:26 am
Turner’s is correct that “the national character was uniquely shaped by the westward movement”, he is mistaken about its significance. The enduring character of the Pioneers and their struggle to overcome the trials of moving west helped build upon the self-reliance that began with the Pilgrims. I agree with the New Western historians that state the effects of “ethnic and racial confrontation, topography, climate and the roles of government and big business” were the primary forces that molded our countries character. Would the Pioneers have survived without the support of the government irrigation and transportation projects? I don’t think so. I also agree that the west was not “won” but rather conquered with the idea that it rightfully belonged to the third group of settlers to occupy it.
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Brian W
2/15/2010 08:40:59 am
I disagree with Taylor in that the westward expansion shaped the character of the west and had an influence on the rest of the nation. That is why the culture of the west is so different from the south and new england states.
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Ryan H
2/15/2010 11:30:20 am
I disagree with Turner. The modern scholars were correct. Spreading out to the west does not change the nation's character. Our country is and was defined by the immigrants who moved here. America is different and defined by the people who make it up. The united states is unique because it is one big melting pot.
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Ryan H
2/15/2010 11:36:32 am
I agree with Zain. The people expnding defined the nation. The west did not define us.
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sunshine
2/16/2010 10:03:26 am
I do not agree with Turner's thesis, that American character was defined by westward expansion. When our nation was still moving westward, the government kept pushing the native americans out of their given territory, and onto new land. They also force fed them white mans culture, whether they wanted it or not. It wasn't fair of us to rip away their ways of life in order to replace it with ours. The things that happened during our westward movement cannot possibly define our nation, when it disrespected our basic priniciples. All men are created equal....life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness....FREEDOM. You know what I'm sayin dood.
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sunshine
2/16/2010 10:06:55 am
I agree with Molly, that the westward expansion did help to shape America as a nation. But Turner argued that it defined our nation and that is not true. One time period in our history cannot define all of it.
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Ted S.
2/22/2010 09:07:26 pm
I agree with the modern scholars because the conditions were way to tough for this to define our country. Our country has been defined by the millions of immigrants that have come to our shores in search of freedom, not by the few that lived and died in the wild west.
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Ted S.
2/22/2010 09:08:49 pm
I with zain. We defined the fronteir, not the other way around.
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Jesus H. Branchaud
3/2/2010 06:26:42 am
Modern Scholars are correct in saying that the frontier was not the defining aspect for America. While the 'wild west' was a major part of the development of America, it wasn't the whole part. There was a lot of other stuff going on, and I think that it's very thought-limiting to just define America by frontier life. However, we did define the life on the frontier. By this I mean we made our own nomadic history story with this time in our past. Just like the migration of the Jews with Moses, and the journey to the sea the Indians made with Gandhi, we too have our own story about a good ol' long walk.
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branflakes mcgee
3/2/2010 07:08:22 am
I agree with Zain, because he basically said the same thing I did, and also because he didn't write a book, (Amber.) .
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